Wank, wank, wank + question for those who read my reviews
So the whole fandom should be free from any differing opinions or any form of criticism thing is going around again in SGA fandom. Five millionth verse same as the first. The people complaining are not actually anyone I would have encountered otherwise, except that the OP commented on a post of mine specifically to tell me they were making a post in response. I guess so I could come over and be chastised or something. *eyeroll*

Here's the thing. I don't write reviews because I'm out to hurt people's feelings or to crush their spirit or make sure they never write in this town again. I'm not sure why I would want to do that. I'm not sure why that's the only reason people can imagine for wanting to talk about writing. The OP said I "enjoy writing scathing reviews", and well, no. I don't, actually. I enjoy writing reviews. Period. It's much more enjoyable writing 100% positive squeeful reviews, if for no other reason than there's no worry of wank or hurt feelings. But I also enjoy talking about what didn't work, whether on a technical level or on a personal level. I enjoy betaing, too, because editing is fun, and it makes for better stories. I don't enjoy betaing because I love to send back drafts covered in (metaphorical) red ink just to see the look on the writer's face when they see what needs to be changed.

The arguments I keep seeing about how fandom is fundamentally different than any other sort of writing just don't make sense to me. In this day and age of Google alerts, if I write a book review on my journal, much less on Amazon, there's a high chance that the author might actually find it and read it. And just because they're a professional doesn't mean they are any more equipped to handle criticism than someone in fandom. (Seriously. I have seen plenty of fans who are more professional than some professional writers.) And yeah, no one is paying for fanfic, but they're still investing time, which I don't think is inherently less valuable. (Not to mention, one doesn't need to spend money to read something professionally published. I can feel just as disappointed with a library book as one I've purchased. For me, it has little to do with the money spent. (Although the more expensive something is, the more I will feel disappointment for what I paid!))

And...I do feel like reviews are providing a useful service. If I were just talking to myself, maybe I'd decide it was too much trouble to write down my thoughts on everything, but people read them, even people who are not particularly interested in reading the fics themselves. (I know I do the same myself. I read recs and reviews of things (be they fanfic or novels/manga/movies/whatever) whether I have any intention of reading/watching the source, just because it's interesting to read people's opinions on things.)

So what it comes down to is two groups of people who have fundamentally incompatible ways of interacting with fandom. People on one side can't bear for any critical comments to exist and think it's rude and mean to say anything not positive, and people on the other believe that criticism has a place in fandom just as it does elsewhere. Of course I'm going to choose the group who agrees with me! There is no compromise. I'm doing my thing over here on my own space, and the "solution" is for me to stop doing things my way and do things their way.

Anyway! I really hadn't meant to ramble on quite that long, and my main point was going to be something that darkrosetiger brought up on my last post, which is that sometimes it may be confusing just from the rating I give a fic as to whether it's just not my thing or is rated down because of technical problems. I think this is mainly problematic for things rated a 2, because it's the rating where everything goes that I'm just not that excited about, so it is a pretty wide mix of things. But at the same time, all the rating represents is my own enjoyment of the fic (and I do detail what each rating means on my profile page).

If you're unwilling to click the cut tag because of possible spoilers, what sort of information would you like to see outside of the cut? I am not talking about basic header info like warnings, MPAA rating, or pairing, because I figure if you really need to know that (and I do try to give a summary that makes the pairing clear), you can click the fic link and read the author's headers. But like, I know my cut tag blurbs can suck at times, because I just sort of put whatever there. :p

Would you like the cut tag to be more specific in terms of why it was rated the way it was (without being spoilery)? Nancy's suggestion was a separate rating for technical and one for subjective stuff, but I feel like if I did that I would feel compelled to go back through all the hundreds of fics I've read and re-rate them so they all match up. So I'm thinking maybe still keep the overall score, but just be clearer before the cut/in the cut tag.

I was thinking about doing this in poll form, but I'm actually more interested in hearing ideas of what you think would be more helpful in that regard.

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(135 comments) - (Post a new comment)

liviapenn 2008-07-20 12:09 pm UTC (link)

Here's the thing. I don't write reviews because I'm out to hurt people's feelings or to crush their spirit or make sure they never write in this town again. I'm not sure why I would want to do that. I'm not sure why that's the only reason people can imagine for wanting to talk about writing. This actually reminds me of some discussions in comics fandom about sexist elements in stories-- some people will bust into any discussion and say things like "How can you be so critical? This is just going to make people mad and then they won't listen to you because they think you're mean." Being concern trolls, basically. "Oh, I definitely think it's important to discuss these things, except you really shouldn't. At all. Ever." And then you have to explain that not every conversation about sexism is taking place for the sole purpose of trying to turn sexist people into non-sexists. Sometimes you want to blow off steam. Sometimes you want to work through an idea that you've just thought of. Sometimes you want to talk to people who already understand and accept "Sexism 101: It Exists And It's Not Good" and are now ready to debate the details of Sexism 201. And yet there are still people who can't understand why any conversation about sexism shouldn't be tailored to the sexist demographic as if it were the sole audience-- dumbed down and coated with sugar so that even misogynist trolls can swallow it. As if there's absolutely no value, either intellectual or emotional, in discussing these issues *for any other purpose*. Which always strikes me as odd. The arguments I keep seeing about how fandom is fundamentally different than any other sort of writing just don't make sense to me. In this day and age of Google alerts, if I write a book review on my journal, much less on Amazon, there's a high chance that the author might actually find it and read it. This has actually happened to at least three people on my flist in the past year or so-- definitely brown_betty and hradzka, and I *think* oyceter as well. And as far as "you don't pay money for fanfic," certainly no one ever argued that we shouldn't be able to criticize television shows because they're free. Basically, I guess I just don't understand how people in *fandom* can fail to understand that some people like to analyze the source they encounter, and that some people enjoy writing reviews of source that they encounter, which sometimes includes criticism. This is *fandom*. This is what we DO. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-20 02:38 pm UTC (link)
	I totally should have broken out my "it's not for you" icon for this post! *does now* But yeah, there is an assumption that discussion of writing is always for the writer, discussion of sexism is always for the people being sexist, etc. etc. etc. and that's just really not true, maybe not even most of the time. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - liviapenn, 2008-07-21 06:46 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-21 07:03 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - azurelunatic, 2008-07-21 11:08 pm UTC (Expand)

(Anonymous) 2008-07-20 12:19 pm UTC (link)

This past spring, someone somewhere quoted someone else somewhere, probably regarding one of hth_the_first's SGA reviews, that fandom can be divided into people who see fannish objects as delicate balloons that need to be gently kept afloat, and people who see them as pinatas, to be smashed a bit to see what neat stuff comes out. Me... I think I'm a fan of transient beauty. A sunset, a flower, an episode that rises above what TPTB meant, a piece of meta tied to its place and time, a review that nails why I loved something, or hated it, or points out something problematic that I'm ashamed to have not noticed. Because so much is utter garbage, and it's so hard to find stuff that's worth ones time; and the stuff that is, might not be there tomorrow; or the person I will be tomorrow, or was yesterday, wouldn't be affected as deeply. Or something. I've got about six more months of twirling this around before I'll really be able to say anything coherent, I'm afraid. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	wneleh 2008-07-20 12:19 pm UTC (link)
	Ooops, not logged in! That was me. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-20 02:34 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - dorothy1901, 2008-07-22 12:02 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-22 12:08 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kisiti, 2008-07-20 08:55 pm UTC (Expand)

	norah 2008-07-20 02:30 pm UTC (link)
	I click through on pretty much all of them that have ratings above 3/5 and are in fandoms I'll read, so the cut-tags haven't really influenced that decision much - I like what you're doing now. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-20 02:33 pm UTC (link)
	*nods* There are quite a few 2/5s that I know a lot of people would like, they're just more typical OTPish fic that doesn't really do it for me, you know? (Reply to this) (Parent)

azurejay 2008-07-20 03:15 pm UTC (link)

I like the way you do things too, and honestly--there are a few fandoms I don't read because I don't want to wade through tonnes of garbage to get to the good stuff. You cut through the garbage for me! I mean, I think I started reading SGA in the first place because of your recs. I don't really read the stuff that's below 4/5--and even then, sometimes I'm like, "I would not have rated this that high! kyuuketsukirui is such a softie!" On the other hand, you have never given me a bad review, so I could just not ~~understand what it's like. Shrug! (Reply to this) (Thread)

kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-20 03:29 pm UTC (link)

LOL! I think that's the first time I've been called a softie when it comes to reviews. There are times I regret ratings. I've gone back and looked at stuff and rerated it. Not that often, but there have been a few that I realised I was too excited about initially (because of the premise or whatever) and that it really didn't hold up. And there have been some that I've read again and thought, why didn't I like this the first time around? It's really good! (Reply to this) (Parent)

mrs260 2008-07-20 03:28 pm UTC (link)

I tend to read your reviews a lot of the time without clicking through to the stories--though I sometimes do when it looks interesting. I just like reading the reviews. I don't actually tend to look at the cut tags, though, so I can't be helpful there. I really resent the "No crit! You can't know for sure that the author doesn't want to wallow in shit!" school. Taking away from the author's fannish delight, is it? Talk about taking away from my fannish delight by making people afraid to give meaty comments on my stories! Gah. If it's so damaging for a writer, they need to request no crit in the headers so people from different fannish cultures know not to waste their time trying to give the writer any pointers. That way everyone's happy except the ones who say they want crit and don't. (And, of course, to address what that post was really about, that doesn't mean "no reviews". Reviews, as you say, are for the reader. Every pro I know knows how to find reviews of their stuff. One is sensitive about reviews and doesn't read them; all the others do. Fanfic authors have the same choice.) One of my closest fannish friends has twice sent me crit that's longer than the story. I love that she does that for me: when she did it as a beta one time, she saved me from going out with my ass naked and painted purple--the story had a major flaw in a middle section and I rewrote it. Not only was it not flawed anymore, it was more in character and had a couple of good jokes! Another time, she sent me Long Crit on a story I'd finished and posted, discussing her mixed reactions and the reasons for them. She was spot on: I felt vaguely the same way and she helped me nail it down. I don't revise posted stories, but her comments helped me avoid future problems along those lines and made me a better writer. Hell, I learned how to edit through public reader-centred crit of fan stories. I charge money for that. Go crit! (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-20 09:25 pm UTC (link)
	Wow, detailed criticism like that would be awesome. I always feel that my stories are made better by stuff that's pointed out in beta. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - darkrosetiger, 2008-07-21 10:00 pm UTC (Expand)

zillah975 2008-07-20 04:26 pm UTC (link)

I like Nancy's idea of a separate rating for technical and one for subjective stuff, and I don't think you'd need to go back and re-rate everything. It's just a change moving forward -- companies do it all the time. :) You could also (instead of or in addition to) include text above the cut to indicate who you think would like it. Like where on the review for "Tonight and the Rest of My Life" you put "Shippers and those who like more romantic/sappy fic might enjoy it a lot more" below the cut -- what about moving that kind of thing above the cut? Would that be considered story spoilers, do you think? My favorite movie review of all time is Elvis Mitchell's review of Brotherhood of the Wolf. I can't even tell for sure whether he liked the movie, but the review made it very clear that I would love it. Now, I wouldn't suggest doing an Elvis Mitchell review for every story -- it's about a thousand words; you'd never do anything else, including eat or sleep. But maybe just being more mindful of the likely intended audience (or the audience most likely to enjoy it, regardless of intent), and including something above the cut to indicate that? I like your reviews a lot, btw, and I do often click ones that you've rated poorly based on your review, but I also (if I'm clicking at all) click into the review willy-nilly, regardless of potential spoilers. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-20 09:03 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, I know I wouldn't need to go back, but it's a compulsion I feel! So I think I'm going to leave the rating untouched, and just be more specific in the cut tag. Some sort of "you might like this if..." might be good, too, yeah. (You might like this if you have a high tolerance for clunky writing! XD) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - diamona, 2008-07-27 05:14 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-27 08:30 pm UTC (Expand)

glossing 2008-07-20 04:31 pm UTC (link)

I like your reviews; I read them even for fandoms (SGA, SPN) that I don't really care about, and I do click through on occasion. We have fairly different taste stylistically, but your diagnosis of shippiness vs. [whatever its opposite is] is usually spot-on. Your cut-tags are usually what draw me in, frankly. :D The arguments I keep seeing about how fandom is fundamentally different than any other sort of writing just don't make sense to me. Nor I. The poster criticizing you for being "rude and declasse" (as if "classy" were a...good thing?) said in a comment to you that Fandom is fundamentally a supportive community of authors and artists and vidders and others who only have their mutual joy, love and squee as reward for their creative efforts That, in a nutshell, is why I feel alienated from fandom and hermit over on IJ. I don't know how to engage like that, I don't trust the sincerity of engaging like that, and I've been made to feel like a freak and a monster for doing things differently. I wish there were more room for different modes of engagement. Nice point on Google alerts, by the way. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

annlarimer 2008-07-20 07:03 pm UTC (link)

Fandom is fundamentally a supportive community of authors and artists and vidders and others who only have their mutual joy, love and squee as reward for their creative efforts Fuck that. I've seen way to many people use this attitude as a way of keeping other fans in line, or as an excuse for plain cowardice. Many years ago, for example, I was assigned a very long, very dull piece of fanfic to illustrate for a fanzine. It wasn't very good, but it meant getting the zine for free, so what the hell, I caved. Stupid on my part. A few months later I met one of the zine editors at a con, and she let me know in no uncertain terms that the staff all despised the story, and the work of the author in general. But they were putting in the time and money to print the damned thing. I'd put in the effort to illustrate it. None of us liked it. None of the readers liked it -- though none of them would say so for publication. None of us wanted to hurt the author's feelings, or be seen as bad fans. Nobody, author included, benefited from the whole affair. So fuck that. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - glossing, 2008-07-20 07:16 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-20 09:01 pm UTC (Expand)

theninth 2008-07-20 04:38 pm UTC (link)

There is no compromise. I'm doing my thing over here on my own space, and the "solution" is for me to stop doing things my way and do things their way. But it IS your space (and the general "your") and what you do in it is your own business. I like your fic reviews. I read them all (for the fandoms I'm interested in, and for the ones you rate very highly) and I've read some stories I might've missed otherwise - especially in fandoms I'm not really following. I've also read stories that you didn't rate highly, but your review was so complete and so thorough that it made me interested. Sometimes I agree with you. Sometimes I might like a story more or even less than you did, because each person has different tastes and interests. all the rating represents is my own enjoyment of the fic Exactly. "Your mileage may vary". One "bad" review doesn't mean anything. Just like a good one doesn't mean anything. Keep doing your reviews the way you've always done 'em. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-20 08:47 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, I have read fics that others disliked just to see what they were talking about and be able to form my own opinion, too. If someone is vocal about disliking something (for a reason other than "it's horrible, laughable badfic", natch), I'm very likely to read out of curiosity. (Reply to this) (Parent)

helsmeta 2008-07-20 05:50 pm UTC (link)

I love your reviews and am baffled by people who think that their very existence is destructive to fandom. But I went into that elsewhere and I'm resisting, with all my might, drawing really heavy parallels. ^_^ I'd like to know whether something is rated lower for technical reasons or for it's-not-your-thing reasons, but I always click the cut-tag anyway, so it wouldn't matter to me one way or another if you change what you put above the cut-tag. I don't agree with your reviews all the time, but I do like reading them! It's the same thing as me reading James Berardinelli's movie reviews. I don't agree with them all the time, but I like seeing what he thinks of them. I want fandom to include reviews of fic, and I want to hear what my friends thought of fic, good and bad. A review that has non-squeeful stuff in it is a way for me to get to know the reviewer, to examine my own thoughts about why I like certain things in fic, to consider what messages I send when I write things the way I do. I may not be the thinkiest, most academic fan on the block, but I do like to think about things, and I like to talk about them and read about them! (Reply to this) (Thread)

kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-20 07:59 pm UTC (link)

I'm really sad that you stopped writing reviews. I enjoyed reading yours, too! I always click cut tags and stuff for reviews and recs, too, despite generally being anti-spoiler for other things. I think with fic a lot of it is that if I'm going to read it, I bookmark it now and by the time I get around to reading it, I'll have forgotten whatever the reccer/reviewer said, so it doesn't really matter. XD I know some people don't want to click the cut tags, though, so I can see where it might be better to make the cut tag text clearer on why the fic received the rating it did. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	annlarimer 2008-07-20 07:05 pm UTC (link)
	I like your reviews as they are. (Reply to this)

lavvyan 2008-07-20 08:10 pm UTC (link)

Considering I had my own very recent run-in with the OP about what you can and can't say about fanfic, and where (I guess I was the one piling straw on the camel's back before you broke it), I won't go into how ridiculous I find the whole you-can-never-say-anything-bad-about-something-if-it's-free idea. As a writer, I learn from criticism. I improve by having people tell me where my faults lie. I reserve the right to be offended if the criticism is not constructive in any way, but on the whole I see it as an opportunity to at least think about what the commenter/reviewer perceived as issues I should work on. If I end up disagreeing, that's a different thing, but more often than not there's something to it, which is why I'm pretty much looking forward to your possible dismembering of my own mcshep_match story (though I wouldn't complain about a higher rating, naturally. Ahem.). (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-20 08:45 pm UTC (link)

LOL! Yours was actually one of the few (so far) that I really loved. And actually, I was surprised, because I had tried reading one of your fics before and it was really more romantic/emotional than I like (if people are talking too much about their emotions it actually hits my embarrassment squick; this is, er, a decided drawback in fandom), so I'm thrilled that you wrote Blink for the fest, because while I didn't start reading it until after the names were revealed, I was still determined to give everything in the fest a try, whereas if you'd just written it at some other time I might have skipped over it altogether thinking "oh, she doesn't write stuff that's to my tastes". And yeah, to me, that's what crit is all about, whether it's in beta or after the fic is finished. Not necessarily accepting everything the critiquer says, but at least thinking it over, and either coming to the conclusion that they're right, or else at least having thought through why I made the choices I did. I used to participate in a concrit comm where you offered your fic up and people would read and comment, and sometimes the stuff I got was thoughtful and sometimes it was of the "you should change your fic because I would like it better this way" type, but it always made me think, which is never a bad thing, IMO. (I am also intensely curious and I would love it if people commented when they didn't like something of mine and just said why they didn't like it, even if it's a purely subjective reason like "it's not my thing".) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - lavvyan, 2008-07-21 06:33 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-21 06:51 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - helsmeta, 2008-07-20 08:55 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - lavvyan, 2008-07-21 06:35 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - telesilla, 2008-07-21 11:37 pm UTC (Expand)

	parthenia14 2008-07-20 10:01 pm UTC (link)
	I just read that whole discussion and I'm gobsmacked. I really like your reviews; I trust your taste, and I think you're always pretty fair. If it weren't for reviewers and reccers, I wouldn't read anything; reading something that you rated 5? Got to be a good reason to read. I have been away from Lj for a bit, I forget how batshit things can get... (Reply to this)

	villeinage 2008-07-20 11:54 pm UTC (link)
	OMG, I adore your reviews! I don't think you should change them at all. (Reply to this)

eveningblue 2008-07-21 12:47 am UTC (link)

I agree with parthenia14 when she says If it weren't for reviewers and reccers, I wouldn't read anything; reading something that you rated 5? Got to be a good reason to read. I love your reviews! I love reading reviews and recs in general. Especially in a fandom like SGA, where there are dozens of stories being posted every day, reviewers and reccers help people like me weed out the dross. I think your reviews are great the way they are. I have a sense of what your taste is, and where it converges with mine, and that helps me decide whether to try a story or not. The whole "you should never say anything bad, ever" thing is so oppressive and stupid. This and other things make me feel very alienated from fandom, although I really enjoy fanworks. Lately I've been thinking maybe I should just participate through my delicious account and not actually engage with other fans at all, because it seems (with only a few exceptions) that when I do it only makes me unhappy. (Reply to this) (Thread)

kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-21 08:03 am UTC (link)

Yeah, I read mainly by recs and reviews myself, mainly because I am too lazy and easily overwhelmed to look through comms and archives, and if I weren't presented with a smaller list, I'd never read anything. :p I do like when there's a small-sized fest and I can read everything, though, because while it means reading a lot of stuff I am not interested in, there are usually some hidden gems that I would ordinarily have missed for whatever reason. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - eveningblue, 2008-07-21 06:11 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-21 06:25 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - eveningblue, 2008-07-21 08:33 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - eveningblue, 2008-07-21 08:24 pm UTC (Expand)

cathexys 2008-07-21 01:13 am UTC (link)

OK, you know we're gonna disagree on this, right? :) Because I do think that we're a community and that different rules apply. That being said, I think reviews are a great thing, and I don't think that articulating one's opinion of a TEXT, analyzing and commenting on it, necessarily violates any community norms. Personally, I only concrit where I know it's wanted (and have actually asked people before where I wasn't sure) and tend to do so often in private. And I don't negative review a lot, because I'd rather spend my time reccing stuff I loved. But I always admire your approach to reading everything, for example, or reviewing everything you read. As for the OP and her complaint...I think it might actually fall into the fest/gift exchange rule book. And there I do quite soundly agree that certain things are just expected, i.e., thanking your writer for your gift even if you didn't like it and, yes, maybe supporting the entire exercise when you partake in it... (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-21 08:00 am UTC (link)

My problems with things like "this is a community, so it's different" and "supporting the exercise by not saying anything negative" are that it hits on two things that are sticking points for me. The first is that I can't really get behind that sort of double standard of it being okay to criticise anyone else, just not someone in fandom, because of some mysterious perceived difference. So if I were to say, okay, I'm not going to ever say anything not 100% positive about fanfic, I would have to apply the same rules to canon, to pro novels, etc. and wow, what a horrible way to live. I don't want to just turn my brain off and never think critically about anything. The second is that for me, lying by omission is just as uncomfortable as outright lying. If I were to not say that I was disappointed by the Match this year and either lie and say it was awesome, or just keep silent, I would feel the same amount of...oppressiveness/discomfort. And lying really, really bothers me. Obviously for some people, either they weren't that disappointed, or lies of omission don't bother them (or outright lying doesn't bother them). But it bugs me a lot and it's not something I can just suddenly wake up and feel differently about. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - helsmeta, 2008-07-21 09:06 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-21 09:11 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - helsmeta, 2008-07-21 09:18 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-21 09:22 pm UTC (Expand)

nixwilliams 2008-07-21 06:50 am UTC (link)

could you please link me to the discussion? in terms of your reviews, i appreciate them. i'll usually read things you rate 5 or 4 even if they're in a fandom i don't really participate in (but not if i've never watched the show, such as SGA). you are about 1037% (YES YOU HEARD) better than i am with not spoiling people for fics when you write up recs. i am trying to be better with that! i think a lot of people (authors) seem to get annoyed when a review is not concrit. a reveiw is for other potential readers, concrit is for the writer. don't get me wrong, i *like* constructive criticism (of course i prefer it from a beta, but any of it is good), and as an author i would much rather a reviewer gave concrit in a review rather than saying "this was a waste of time" or something, but that's not the reviewer's job. if it concerns you that you might be coming across as too harsh to the authors, (and i don't know if it should) then wording your review something like "the story could have been improved by X" will make it more useful for the author. that is, instead of (or as well as) "the use of hyperbole was offputting" you could give an example of what you mean. i think sometimes you do this anyway... eek, i have to go! sorry! (Reply to this) (Thread)

kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-21 07:36 am UTC (link)

Wank is here. I'm not really worried about how my reviews come across to authors. I already tone things down a lot, often rewording stuff that on second readthrough is harsher than necessary, and making sure to explain why I thought the writing had problems and noting when scores are low because it's just not the type of fic I like. I'm more concerned about making the reviews more helpful to readers, as they're my primary audience, not the writers. 1037% is a lot! I think sometimes I'm pretty spoilery, but I try not to be when it's a fic that has plot twists and stuff. (Most fanfic? Not too plot twisty.) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - nixwilliams, 2008-07-21 10:44 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-21 11:12 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - dmarley, 2008-07-21 11:06 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-21 11:27 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - vito_excalibur, 2008-07-23 02:17 am UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-23 03:42 am UTC (Expand)

ninasis 2008-07-21 08:55 pm UTC (link)

oulangi went thru something very similar in the HP fandom a while back (time gets away from me...think it was in '06...) She posts very thorough reviews of what she reads, and she was dogpiled on something fierce by the nice brigade. Basically with the exact same arguments you're seeing. I'm not sure if you followed any of that back then, but you can see some of the fallout here. I love reviews. Love. Love. Love. I rarely read anything these days that doesn't come from a rec or a review. All of the rec'ers that I follow are people who have shown they can be trusted - they don't rec stories from their friends, they don't handwave problems with stories, etc. I don't see ANYTHING wrong with posting an honest review, or conditional recs, or whatever. As other people have said much more eloquently than I can - if you post something in public, for consumption by the public, then you can't dictate how that public responds to your story. And in my opinion being too nice is just as much of a disservice to fandom as being "too mean." I've added you to my f'list and will be looking forward to reading your past reviews, and seeing your future reviews! :) (Reply to this) (Thread)

kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-21 09:31 pm UTC (link)

Yep, I remember the thing with oulangi. I was surprised at the fallout, because I'd been writing reviews for about a year at that time and never had any wank. I've been writing reviews for about three years now and this is really the first time. There've been a few isolated incidents, and for all I know there may have been bitching in locked posts and such, but nowhere that I saw. It looks like we have a lot of overlap in fandoms, so hopefully you'll find them to be useful. :) btw, I see you don't have painless_j friended. Do you read her reviews? I tend to bookmark a lot of HP stuff from her. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - ninasis, 2008-07-21 09:41 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-21 10:01 pm UTC (Expand)

*wanders in* - lunabee34, 2008-07-22 12:57 am UTC (Expand)

Re: *wanders in* - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-22 01:05 am UTC (Expand)

cryptoxin 2008-07-21 09:47 pm UTC (link)

I really like your reviews as they currently are. Recs are great, but it's also interesting to hear what stuff didn't work for someone in a story -- both because it makes me think about what makes a story work or not work for me, and to get a fuller picture of the reviewer's tastes & preferences. That whole discussion in the other post is one of the downsides to me of the "fandom as gift economy" meme (outside of limited contexts like fic/art exchanges). I'm not looking for gifts here, I'm interested in finding good stories that I'll like, and good discussions about stories that I've read (including critical ones). I can't really figure out, in that other discussion, who or what people are trying to protect -- the writer, from finding out that someone wasn't crazy about their story and/or that it wasn't as good as all the other feedback implied? Or the story, from losing potential readers turned off by a bad review? Or the community, from any hint that anybody is reading differently than everybody else? It's such a strange mentality to me, I feel like I must be missing or misunderstanding something. (Reply to this) (Thread)

kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-21 10:07 pm UTC (link)

I'm definitely not looking to change anything of the content of my reviews, just considering what might be more helpful outside the cut tag if people don't want to read the entire review before clicking. And yeah, I'm not really sure what the goal is in all this, either. I think it may be a combination of those three, and just a general desire to have it be a "safe space" where no one ever has to risk hearing anything that might possibly upset them. I don't think negative reviews really turn people off of fics, though. For one thing, a lot of times people will be curious and check it out themselves (I know I often do). And if I hadn't seen the review, I probably wouldn't have known the fic existed in the first place. Whereas maybe these people see everyone as someone who was going to read, and then is turned off by criticism? Like, oh, I would have got so many more comments if not for that negative review! I don't think that's how it really works, though. (Maybe if I were a huge BNF and everyone wanted to do as I said, but alas, I haven't the power to bend fandom to my will!) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - cryptoxin, 2008-07-21 10:18 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) - kyuuketsukirui, 2008-07-21 10:53 pm UTC (Expand)

	snacky 2008-07-21 09:48 pm UTC (link)
	I just wanted to say, I always appreciate your reviews. And I really shouldn't be surprised, but someone saying, "You should be able to write what you want, free from criticism, except for YOU, writing what you want, I can certainly criticize THAT!" and not recognizing the hypocrisy, will never stop boggling me. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-21 09:53 pm UTC (link)
	helsmeta made a good comment to that effect over there, to someone who was accusing me of thinking I'm the queen of fandom (I wish!) or something, while at the same time trying to tell me what I could and couldn't do in my own journal, but it unsurprisingly fell on deaf ears. I was already at INCOHERENT RAGE by that point and had given up engaging anyone over there. :p (Reply to this) (Parent)

Here from MF tacky_tramp 2008-07-21 10:35 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, I guess it had been a while since we had this wank. Good to see we're right on schedule! Not much to add except I linksurfed a bit and got to your original comments on mcshep_match and, wow, talk about underwhelming. I was expecting cuss words and similes involving barnyard animals' genitalia. Instead, I saw a lukewarm critique of people's technical skill and a comment about your personal taste. I dunno. Fandom takes all kinds. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	Re: Here from MF kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-21 10:50 pm UTC (link)
	LOL I know, right? I'm pretty sure even if I heavily sugar-coated things, I would still be a horrible person just for voicing my opinion in the first place. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Here from MF - zillah975, 2008-07-22 12:04 am UTC (Expand)

	snorkackcatcher 2008-07-21 11:01 pm UTC (link)
	Balanced reviews are a Good Thing on the whole, as is concrit and publicity, even via a poor review. It's possible to get too precious about your fic and a good dose of unenthusiasm is salutary. Also, it's your journal. If you want to post it, knowing the range of reactions, that's up to you. (Reply to this) (Thread)

kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-21 11:13 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, I was saying above, I think people have this idea that everyone who might read a bad review was already a potential audience for the fic in question, and will then be turned off by the review. While that may be true of some, I think most will fall into the "would never have even heard of it" camp, with some more in the "curious enough to read and see what the hubub is about" camp as well. I know there have been plenty of fics I've read out of curiosity to see if I agreed with the reviewer. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	telesilla 2008-07-21 11:45 pm UTC (link)
	The hypocrisy still stuns me; can these people not look at what they're saying and see that they're doing exactly the same thing they accuse us of doing? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-21 11:49 pm UTC (link)
	Those nice girl goggles are pretty strong. Meanwhile I've been friended by seven people yesterday and today. So I'm considering it a win. I've learned who to avoid in fandom, and made some new friends. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	here via Metafandom lassarina 2008-07-21 11:59 pm UTC (link)
	...and I'm in the camp that says "My God, why aren't there more people like you in MY fandoms? I'm DYING for good concrit over here." I don't know why people assume that reviews with critique are an effort to chase someone out. Wouldn't someone want to improve, to know where they did well and where they could do better? This boggles me utterly. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: here via Metafandom kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-22 12:10 am UTC (link)
	I wish there were more people like me in all fandoms! I'd totally friend them and read their reviews even if it was for fandoms I didn't know. I just like reading reviews (recs, too, if they're more than just "go read this awesome fic!"). (Reply to this) (Parent)

klangley56 2008-07-22 12:31 am UTC (link)

Well, the discussion may be "going around again in SGA fandom" at the moment, but be prepared to see it again, because that particular discussion has been going around almost as long as fan fiction has been in public distribution. :-) I don't think I've had occasion to read your reviews. I must check them out, as I've loved reviews for as long as I've been fandom. As much as I love reading fan fiction, I love talking about it and hearing other fans talk about it. That's part of the fun of fandom for me. Why? Because I enjoy the process--people talking about what they like and why, or what they don't like and why. Discussion of stories can be formal (reviews, critiques) or informal (discussion with friends, on mailings lists and LJs, at convention panels or in the hotel hallways). And a well-done review is as creative and thought-provoking and entertaining to me as a fan fiction story. I still pull zines off the shelf that I've had for thirty years and more, just to reread the review columns. In the 90s Marty S. did a yearly review zine--"Wanna Buy a Fanzine?"--that came out each year at MediaWest*Con. And each year, with a box full of new zines hot off the presses from that con, the first one I rushed to read was "Wanna Buy." I've gotten into entirely new fandoms by reading reviews. I guess I'm a review slut. :-) If a writer of fan fiction does not want to be discussed publicly, then she (I'll default to the feminine gender here) should keep the work on her hard drive or in her desk drawer. If she wants to share what she's done, but is unprepared to deal with the concept that not everyone may like what she's produced and may say so, then she should restrict her distribution to her mother, her best friends, and her family pet. I've said it before and it bears repeating, a reader's reasons for discussing a piece of fiction, a zine, or an author's body of work may not be directed at the author. And will some fans be *bad* at writing their reviews or LoCs or story commentary? Sure. The same way that some fan fiction writers are bad at producing fan fiction. That makes it a level playing ground. In an ideal world, both the writers and the reviewers/commenters will learn from their mistakes and get better at what they do. Either way, reviews both positive and negative are here to stay. To do otherwise would be illogical, unfair, and dishonest. So, go *you*. Keep writing those reviews. :-) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-22 12:43 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, I've seen the discussion many times before. I think this may actually be the first time I've seen it in SGA fandom. It would be nice if people who object to reviews could just, you know, not read them and leave those of us who do alone, but I highly doubt that will happen. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	swing_set 2008-07-22 01:24 am UTC (link)
	I agree with nearly everything you've said here. I write fic, and I absolutely hate the fact that there seems to be this atmosphere around lj that it is absolutely rude and terrible to leave a less-than-entirely-positive review. It's stifling and a little silly IMO. So \o/to you for this post! (Reply to this) (Thread)

kyuuketsukirui 2008-07-22 01:33 am UTC (link)

I'd never really thought about it before, but it's odd when fanfiction.net is more likely to net less than positive fb/reviews than LJ is. LJ is supposed to be so much more grown up than FFN. I mean, not that the criticisms I've received on FFN have generally been good. They've usually been of the "totally missing the point" variety. But still. People are willing to say that they didn't like something. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - swing_set, 2008-07-22 01:44 am UTC (Expand)

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