kyuuketsukirui: Avoid this survey!

Travis (

kyuuketsukirui) wrote,
@ 2009-08-30 19:22:00

Avoid this survey!
There is a fandom survey going around, which you will recognise by the huge banner people are posting for it. DO NOT TAKE IT.

You can read comments here for how problematic it is, and their mission statement is here, which I am kicking myself for not reading before taking the survey.

Their mission is to prove hardwired gender differences. How on earth is that possible? Fandom is mostly women! How are they going to get enough men to make such a comparison? And their questions are so loaded and full of assumptions and some of them have no answers that don't force you to choose what they want you to choose, that either you have to skip the question (which I didn't even know was a choice) or lie in order to proceed!

It's a badly-designed survey. It's a heavily-biased survey. Even if you agree with their mission statement, you shouldn't take the survey because it's a piece of shit survey. Any survey that requires you to lie to proceed is a bad survey (and since there is nothing that says you can skip a question and still proceed, many people will indeed lie in order to be able to move on).

(45 comments) - (Post a new comment)

	ohmiya_sg 2009-08-31 03:40 am UTC (link)
	I haven't even opened the survey to look at the questions, but judging by the few I've seen on their LJ and the responses they've been getting...is it bad that I already think they're asshats? :x On the other hand, I'm loving how many comments they're getting that are telling them how unscientific this whole thing is. :Dv Edited at 2009-08-31 03:45 am UTC (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2009-08-31 04:16 am UTC (link)
	Before I took the survey, all I saw was the banners about it and so I just clicked not knowing any better. :-/ (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ohmiya_sg 2009-08-31 04:20 am UTC (link)
	I took it just so I could see all the questions and give them the faulty data they may not have been looking for. Well. Not that I lied...but I wanted to leave feedback. :D (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mrs260 2009-08-31 04:02 am UTC (link)
	Question 41, about how one researches male physiology for slash purposes, seems to assume that the survey taker is not a man. (No "my own body/sexual experiences" type answer.) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2009-08-31 04:15 am UTC (link)
	I know! Or even for women, how about personal experience from having sex with men? It's not that different, seriously. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	schmevil 2009-08-31 04:18 am UTC (link)
	This. It's not like women don't explore That Territory with their male lovers. The prostate: a gay no woman's land, (where ladies fear to tread). (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2009-08-31 04:29 am UTC (link)
	I wasn't even sure if they were talking just about anal sex or about all sex men could have with other men. Either way, it always comes back to dude, it's not so different. Also not all men even have penises and prostates and all that junk. SO THERE. :p (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

schmevil
2009-08-31 10:38 am UTC (link)

It was pretty heterosexist (occasional nods to the existence of intersex and transgender people, regardless), so I thought I'd be safe assuming they were talking about anal. Come to think of it, oral sex is another possibility. If (some) old school slash is right, women just Don't Get It. -_-

Also not all men even have penises and prostates and all that junk. SO THERE. :p

Madness! ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	annlarimer 2009-08-31 02:39 pm UTC (link)
	It was friggin' sexist, too. I ended up writing WHAT IS THIS, TIGER BEAT? in one question. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	schmevil 2009-08-31 02:53 pm UTC (link)
	What fictional character is your dream mate!? Do you believe in true love!? (Reply to this) (Parent)

friendshipper
2009-08-31 05:49 am UTC (link)

I'd say "yes and no", though, because I have gay male friends who laugh their heads off at unrealistic sex scenes in slash written by women.

I'm not disagreeing with your basic point -- that m/m sex is not some magically different sort of thing; that quite a few writers of m/m *are* men, and even women can use what they already know in writing an m/m sex scene -- all good points! But I do think research is a good idea for female-bodied writers writing sex from a male-bodied POV, even if "research" is just finding a guy friend and asking him :D. I mean, I've had plenty of vanilla sex, but if I were writing BDSM I'd feel the need to research the hell out of it even though in that case the parts are all the same as in the sex I'm used to having.

(And I know this is quite OT to the original post. *slinks away*)

Edited at 2009-08-31 05:50 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

kyuuketsukirui
2009-08-31 05:55 am UTC (link)

Gay porn written by and for gay men is often equally unrealistic and ridiculous. I generally assume when I read (or watch) unrealistic porn that it's unrealistic because the people who made it don't care and in fact get off on the unrealistic aspects.

I mean, to take it to a really extreme example, if I go to 4chan or something and browse through drawings of girls whose nipples are like penises, I don't honestly think that the guys who drew those pictures think that's what nipples are like. But they get off on dick nipples.

Porn is not always realistic. In fact, it's probably rarely realistic. It really bothers me that when such unrealistic porn is written by women, it's assumed to be because they're too stupid to know better.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

friendshipper
2009-08-31 06:21 am UTC (link)

Hmm. Maybe the difference is that I don't read porn to get off, so I approach a sex scene with the same expectations for research and realism and characterization that I do a medical scene or a gun battle or a car chase in downtown Toronto. I can accept a writer choosing to gloss over the strictest aspects of realism for fantasy purposes (sure, most people probably don't have lube in every room in the house, but that's okay; yeah, maybe the bad guy missed every one of his shots but the hero nailed him with one bullet from a .38), but I expect that the writer will have done enough research that there won't be anything laughably wrong -- the gun won't fire 30 bullets in a row, the asshole won't be self-lubricating, the streets in the city will be correctly named and in the right locations.

It really bothers me that when such unrealistic porn is written by women, it's assumed to be because they're too stupid to know better.

But how many women say of porn by and for men, "If they actually knew any women, they wouldn't have written that"? Because I've heard that a lot. And while I've read some laughably silly porn written by women about female parts, I don't think I've read anything that made me think they didn't even know how the parts *worked* (whereas I've seen quite a bit of that, on both sides, by people writing about a sex or orientation that isn't their own).

I didn't mean to single out slash as the only kind of unrealistic sex writing that there is.

And let me back down from the absolutes in my above comment, then. *For me*, research is necessary because emotional and physical realism is something that I want to achieve in my writing. I certainly can't make that call for someone else, and I don't mean to imply that porn is "less" if it's not well researched or realistic. If the objective was to get someone off, and it got someone off, then obviously it was successful porn, self-lubricating assholes or not!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

kyuuketsukirui
2009-08-31 06:33 am UTC (link)

I prefer realistic sex, too, though I honestly don't think it requires extensive research, unless you're really truly ignorant of basic human anatomy. Which I don't think describes the majority of writers.

Furthermore, I dislike the assumption that male physiology is SO DIFFERENT, but somehow women are all cookie cutters? When I read people talking about their personal experiences (as in, not exaggerated/unrealistic porn), I rarely find we have anything in common in the way our bodies respond, even though I am female-bodied.

The basics of sex are pretty universal. The specifics vary from person to person. This is true regardless of whether the person has a penis or a vagina.

And yes, you're right, I have heard some women say that about porn written for men. That bothers me, too. But my point still stands that your friends may laugh about how unrealistic some slash is, but if you go on Nifty or some other porn site that is by and for men, you will find exactly the same things.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	postingwhore 2009-09-01 02:23 am UTC (link)
	The basics of sex are pretty universal. The specifics vary from person to person. This is true regardless of whether the person has a penis or a vagina. You make it sound so simple! :P Yet none of it will ever make sense to me...;_; is clueless asexual and hates writing porn scenes (Reply to this) (Parent)

	phaetonschariot 2009-08-31 06:49 am UTC (link)
	eek, the one thing that will throw me out of an otherwise decent sex scene faster than anything else is penetrative anal sex with a disregard for the need for lubrication. It'll be like "hothothothot---OHGODNO." (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2009-08-31 06:58 am UTC (link)
	That's not actually unrealistic, though. I mean, it may not be your kink, but plenty of people have anal sex without lube, and it irks me when it's always brought up as one of those things that's zomg so unrealistic. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

phaetonschariot
2009-08-31 07:03 am UTC (link)

Well when I say disregard, if there was some acknowledgement that they were deliberately not using lube, I wouldn't count that. If the desirability of lube in general was completely ignored and there was no indication that it ever existed, it throws me. There's a lot of things I'm much happier with if it's acknowledged that they're deliberate, but when they seem to be just put in there as a matter of course like it's normal they make me go D:

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

kyuuketsukirui
2009-08-31 07:06 am UTC (link)

True. I'm that way with condoms. I don't mind a fic where the guys are deliberately deciding not to use condoms (and by deliberately, I include "forgot in the heat of the moment and had an 'oh fuck' moment afterwards"), but when it seems to be set in a world where condoms and STDs simply don't exist, it really throws me out. It's not that I want all fic to be some safe sex lecture or think that everyone in fiction needs to be practicing safe sex, but I do need an acknowledgement that the world I'm reading about is the same world we live in (except when it's not, and if I'm reading about Star Wars, then sure, but if I'm not, there'd better be a reason).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

phaetonschariot
2009-08-31 07:13 am UTC (link)

Yeah - when writing Jack/Ianto, because Jack's an immortal from the 51st century, I'll write a lot of things that would need more protection or set up or discussion in other characters or pairings. And where I used to be sort of squicked by rimming I'll happily read it now but I especially love when a character who's never done it/had it done before has some kind of reaction to the concept, because most people (not all) will have that moment of "mouth goes WHERE?"

Hell, it's not even always about sex - I once had a roleplaying character in a relationship that was quite emotionally abusive, which would have been really fun and interesting except that the player of the other character seemed to think it was perfectly normal. Knowing that made it really hard for me to enjoy exploring the ramifications of it, because.... yeah. :/ It was creepy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2009-08-31 07:14 am UTC (link)
	Ack, that sucks re: the RPG. It sounds like it would have been a really interesting plotline, too! (Reply to this) (Parent)

friendshipper
2009-08-31 12:11 pm UTC (link)

*nods* I'm the same way with condoms -- though I know most writers probably don't mention them because they don't want the condom getting in the way of the fantasy -- but that's a good example of the sort of thing that a writer might need to look outside their usual circle to realize is unusual. I totally agree with you that people are all individuals when it comes to sex (something I wish more writers would keep in mind!) but, if you're aiming for realism, you kinda need a general idea of how usual or unusual your character's tastes and sexual responses probably are, and how it relates to the real world, because that informs how their partner's going to react, and how the audience is going to react too. Case in point -- I've only ever had sex with one partner, who happens to be uncut, and for the longest time I had no idea why some stories make references to lube/lotion being used in masturbation or handjob scenes. I could not imagine why it was necessary and would have never thought to mention it in a story, until some story or other got me thinking about the mechanics of a circumsized cock and the fact that perhaps it would be uncomfortable to have a hand job without lubrication if the head was being touched directly (as opposed to being covered up by a foreskin). It's hard to know what your blind spots are, without reading around a bit.

(On the other hand, if your readers have the same blind spots, I suppose no one is going to notice ...)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

kyuuketsukirui
2009-08-31 12:24 pm UTC (link)

True. I guess reading something and realising something you might not have thought of doesn't really conjure up the same image as the word research to me. I don't know. I've just never felt a great need to go and research stuff related to sex because it's knowledge you just absorb from living. (I never really understood the point of sex ed, either. Like, kids don't know all that by that age? Really? I never had sex ed and yet somehow I picked up everything there was to know just from cultural osmosis.)

Not all cut guys use lube for jerking off, either, btw. It seems to pop up a lot in fic in that "I learned something and therefore must apply it to EVERYTHING" way.

Edited at 2009-08-31 12:26 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

friendshipper
2009-08-31 12:50 pm UTC (link)

Yeah ... I know you can't over-generalize (and it's kind of hilarious how things go in cycles in fic -- one author discovers a new sexual position, and suddenly everyone is writing it!) but - I guess the thought just never occurred to me that it *wouldn't* be a good idea to go and find some resources and first-hand accounts before writing sex from the viewpoint of someone who isn't me. I do draw on my own experiences in writing sex scenes, but my experience is limited and, I assume, pretty atypical (I had no interest whatsoever in sex as a teen; I didn't even know it was possible for women to experience orgasm until I was in college, and the idea that a lot of women enjoy vaginal intercourse is something that's still difficult to wrap my mind around). And the more divorced from my own experience it gets, the less I feel like I can write with the sort of authority that it takes to convince a reader, without researching a bit. I guess "research" is kind of a vague word because to me it encompasses all of the things that I do to learn stuff I need to know for a story, everything from googling search terms to reading books to asking a friend, "Hey, what does it feel like when you [...]?" I know that it tends to jolt me out of a story when I run into a casual error or something that doesn't fit with my own experience, so I figure that research is the way to keep from doing that to my own readers.

Not that I write sex all that much. ;p But it applies to most of the things I write. I don't think I've ever felt like I've over-researched a story, but there have been plenty of times that I wish I'd researched it more, especially when someone points out an error or I go back with the benefit of hindsight and see all the things I got wrong.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

kyuuketsukirui
2009-08-31 01:11 pm UTC (link)

*nods* I just had a knee-jerk reaction to that question on the survey because it invokes this idea that teh menz are soooo mysterious and different that no woman can possibly have a clue about their anatomy or the mysterious ways they have sex. (I mean, like someone else said, if you have an asshole, which most people do, you can pretty much get an idea of what anal sex will feel like for anyone, man or woman.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	annlarimer 2009-08-31 02:54 pm UTC (link)
	Gay porn written by and for gay men is often equally unrealistic and ridiculous. Oh, sweet Lord, yes. Gay men are not infallible oracles of sex writin', and it's creepy when female fans treat them that way. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	kyuuketsukirui 2009-08-31 05:57 am UTC (link)
	Though if you have no grasp of human anatomy and want to write realistic sex, then sure, research. But a person without a penis who has sex with a person with a penis can observe how it works. They don't need to research it on the internet. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	nixwilliams 2009-08-31 04:36 am UTC (link)
	i know! this is fun.. i'm just scrolling though it without answering, occasionally writing "i am a banana" and other inane statements in the text boxes. I LOVE TROLLING. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ohmiya_sg 2009-08-31 04:40 am UTC (link)
	My spoon is too big! :D? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	nixwilliams 2009-08-31 05:12 am UTC (link)
	DANCE! EVERYBODY DANCE! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	nixwilliams 2009-08-31 06:10 am UTC (link)
	i had to go and find that again - last time i looked for it it had disappeared from the intert00bz in a huff. but lo! it is once again on youtube! in all its anus-bleeding glory! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ohmiya_sg 2009-08-31 06:17 am UTC (link)
	I still have them all on my external hard drive. XD (Reply to this) (Parent)

	bitterfilms.com almostnever 2009-09-01 08:10 am UTC (link)
	A little love for the creator, Don Hertzfeldt: http://bitterfilms.com/ He just keeps getting better and better. everything will be ok was a tour de force. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: bitterfilms.com nixwilliams 2009-09-01 11:22 pm UTC (link)
	i'd love to see that! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	nixwilliams 2009-08-31 04:25 am UTC (link)
	omg, wow! how badly prepared does that sound? VERY. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2009-08-31 04:27 am UTC (link)
	It is bad, so very bad. And apparently they're planning to write a book with the results??? D: It was bad enough when I thought it was for a research paper or something, but a survey this badly designed it for a book? Gah! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	phaetonschariot 2009-08-31 06:50 am UTC (link)
	hahahahahahahha. I'm having way too much fun merrily tromping through their comments section. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	schmevil 2009-08-31 10:46 am UTC (link)
	I read through all the questions. Once again I feel like I'm in an invisible part of fandom. Even if I wanted to fill it out, I'd have trouble with a lot of the questions. Which fic (one assumes erotic) would I most like to act out? LOLWUT? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2009-08-31 10:49 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, I found that question bizarre. I had a lot of trouble with the survey just from the assumptions in the questions and the fact that so many of them had no applicable answer for me, so I was annoyed at it just from a "gah, this is badly designed!" standpoint. But then learning more about why they made the survey, blech. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	schmevil 2009-08-31 11:03 am UTC (link)
	Yes, this. But what troubles me is that iirc they've said that the questions were formed with help from slash fans. It's coming from inside the house! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	kyuuketsukirui 2009-08-31 11:08 am UTC (link)
	One person on my flist said they helped beta some of the questions, but that while some wording was changed, some suggestions for changes were ignored. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ella_bane 2009-08-31 02:33 pm UTC (link)
	I read through some of the discussion, and the writer of the poll wrote this in response to a question regarding wordcount and story length: To be honest, I didn't realize that fanfiction included novels and novellas. Huh? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	annlarimer 2009-08-31 02:56 pm UTC (link)
	o_O You're kidding me. No, I know you're not, but you're kidding me. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	kyuuketsukirui 2009-08-31 07:24 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, that was like...wtf? You'd think they could spend two seconds doing some research before writing up their survey. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	elfwreck 2009-09-01 04:47 am UTC (link)
	This pos, and the matching one at DW, have been included in a linkspam roundup. (Reply to this)

(45 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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